Nor did the support of the TUC

Nor did the support of the TUC.No, but we believe very substantially in our case. We are determined to prosecute this to a fair and negotiated settlement.When might that be? How long do you think you can hold out?The resolve of our members can take it some way They are prepared to contemplate that. Until Railtrack abandons its present tactics and comes back to negotiations, there is no end in sight.And if you can’t negotiate, what’s wrong with going to arbitration?That will be a wee while yet. The arbitration question is one that I don’t think is appropriate at this precise minute in time because we haven’t even really started negotiating yet.Is there not always a time in a dispute when a pragmatic union leader has to make a calculation: is it worth continuing?We have not reached the point yet where that calculation needs to be made, or has to be made The strikers are solid There is a great resolve among our members. It is always as well to remind ourselves that this is a real, grassroots dispute. There was a postal ballot, 80 per cent return and a four and a half to one majority for strike action.

We will continue until we get a change of heart from Railtrack.And if it doesn’t come, there will come a point when you will have to take that decision. You are the leader.But that point is not here.When does that point come?It is not in sight yet. I mean, I know exactly what you are saying, that there is a moment in time when you know this is the best moment to settle We have not reached that. Put that very clearly and very precisely.How far off are we?It is not in sight, not in sight.Were you disappointed about the attitude of Tony Blair?The one thing that Tony Blair and I agree about is that the Government ought to get out of the way and facilitate negotiations.You say the Government should get out, but how can the Government abdicate its responsibilities as the employer in the public sector?The Government has totally misread the situation. The proposals that were beginning to emerge on 6 June could have sat very comfortably inside the Government’s pay policy. There was a 5.7 per cent offer there, there was a list of items that the signallers had already contributed to changes in working practices, there was a commitment to a joint working party to look at the future. It is my very firmly held view that if the Government had allowed that process to continue rather than destroy it recklessly, we could have emerged with a framework that would have sat even inside its pay policy.I think the Government has moved for political reasons, not for the best interests of the travelling public.Are you trying to destroy the Government’s pay policy?No I am not That has never been at the bottom of this dispute.

What I am trying to do is prosecute my members’ case.It’s not as simple as that All these things do have a political impact. The Government can’t ignore that.It’s simple in the sense that it fits within its policy, even if you accept its policy – and I am opposed to it by the way. It will have to be changed eventually, otherwise there is going to be an outburst from workers in the public sector.When the dispute is over, will there not be recriminations from the Government whether you win or not? De-recognition and all that kind of thing?That is possible at any time in this kind of climate. What it can’t do is destroy the railway workers’ desire to have a union, to be part of a union.I don’t think given the nature of the industry and the job that needs to be done, that de- recognition would be in the best interests of either the workforce or the employer. I think the public want the railways and they want the railways to prosper When this dispute is over, that feeling will still be there.